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  • #16
    I first want to tell everyone that has responded to my plea that honestly, your help has been invaluable to me. I know I am not the only one who has been where I am, and it must be so hard to listen to story after story and remain patient and compassionate. But somehow you do, and I am so grateful.

    Iloerose, I am going to really try to stick to the pill taper plan and do it that way. I promise to TRY MY HARDEST not to use the subs...If the withdrawl becomes at some point intolerable, I will post here if I decide to try a tiny bit of subs. I understand it is crutial to be at a 26 on the cows worksheet and to induct at the lowest possible dose. I believe that would be at 1/8th of a strip, right? But again, hopefully I won't get to that point. I do have anxiety meds so maybe that will be enough when I jump.

    Thank you so, so so much again, just for listening and offering your wisdom!

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    • #17
      Nikki if you can stretch out your pills till next Sat and not use subs that would be great. You stated you can get a script Sat and if you can get by till then with maybe some help from a friend till then and get your script and do a real honest taper with a refill then I would try that. I just know subs mainly and using them as a tool to bet clean. Im also familiar with all sorts of dealing with WD from alcohol to opiates and WD no matter what form it comes in sux. Ive been hanging around here on this site for awhile now and trust me when it comes to advise Rose is invaluable here and when ever I see her replies to people on here I know that person is in very good hands. Need to get some sleep now as work calls early in the morning.

      Alex

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      • #18
        Thanks Alex...I am working on just that plan as we speak. Is there a good pill taper plan here that others have used that seems to work well?

        I have a general question though...and NO I am not going to use the subs. But I have seen videos on youtube with doctors that use subs to immediately wean off opiates, in fact, years ago when I was in treatment they used subs on me for a week or so to detox from a much larger pill problem. I am surprised so many stay on subs for so long...like as a replacement therapy much like methadone. I really was under the impression that they were to be used only short term. Like inducted low and then lower everyday for a week or so. It worked wonderfully for me back in the day, so that is why I thought my plan would work.

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        • #19
          Nikki

          You can use them short term, what we are telling you is you will still have withdrawals. If you have used them in the manner you described before and it worked you could try that again. I'm fairly new to subs and these boards but I've never heard of a plan like that. But if you did that in rehab and were successful then just do exactly what they did.

          I'm just not sure how that would work because as we have said, subs are strong and you will still have w/d. There is no way that I know of to escape w/d's. I think there is some guy who sedates his patients for a few days while they d/t but that seems incredibly dangerous to me.

          You might ask on the Need to Talk board about a taper plan for the Norco's, someone might have a good plan there. Most of us on the sub board used subs as we weren't able to taper off pills. I am just like Alex, I away a said I would taper but I couldn't do it. Knowing one or two pills would make me feel normal was too tempting and I always pounded through my pills. Plus my husband used as well and he always ran out early and would beg me for mine.

          Good luck let us know what you decide to do.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Nikki,

            You can pretty much follow the same suboxone taper plan that sharks posted for you. Some might say 30% every 3 days to account for the shorter half-life of the hydro, so adjust accordingly given that info and of course how you are feeling. The least painful tapers are going to be the slow and steady ones, but the time involved retires incredible willpower as more time equals more opportunities for something to come up that sets you back.
            ~ #one

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            • #21
              67Nikki, if you have a strong will and or someone to dispense pills for you I have tapered off Norco's 8-10 per day twice and felt little to no symptoms. But note my Dad was an H abuser and my Mom Coke and Alcohol and everyone has a different "bodily limits". I will make it short and sweet, Norco with or without taper at 60-80mg is totally do able and for me at the time Opiate ignorant didn't even notice getting off hydro "I do smoke weed daily and have a MMJ card which I have had since 18" this is how I have tapered Hydo with absolutely no w/d.

              lets say your at 60mg because of the short half life lets say you take one pill ever 4 hours and double down on your night dose instead of waking up to take in middle of the night.

              So 1st day cut one pill out you can either wait 6 hours twice to make the difference or cut one in half and take half at your Vally's worst feeling times of days this would mean no double dose at night instead 1 1/2

              then wait two days and repeat once you get down to 30mg cut half a pill out ever two days you can get off 10mg/5mg/2.5mg your choice. best of luck.

              Now for somethings to make you more informed as far as opiate w/d hydro and trust me been there done that I have read what others have posted too. They are far less painful/psychological then Morphine, Suboxone, Methadone >>>>>>, and worse of all Oxy. I have many many friends who have gone through the ringer and I have personally tried all pain meds and w/d from them "ALL" other then Methadone, Sub's.

              I would break it down like this
              codeine, people w/d from this? I had as kid don't remember
              Hydro, some people will not notice other will feel like bad flu, mild/ moderate w/d
              Morphine, bad flu, aches, full on w/d
              hydo-morph/oxy-morph, bad flu, aches, full on w/d worse then Morphine
              Fentalyn, bad flu aches, full on w/d similar to Morphine
              Oxycodone, hell, full on w/d by far the worst of all the above.

              Sub's - Heard its helped many but has also gotten alot of people worse off then where they were because doctors don't understand dosing and taper plan unless they come on this board of course...

              Methadone - Please don't ever take this lost far to many friends to count

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by The Husband View Post
                67Nikki, if you have a strong will and or someone to dispense pills for you I have tapered off Norco's 8-10 per day twice and felt little to no symptoms. But note my Dad was an H abuser and my Mom Coke and Alcohol and everyone has a different "bodily limits". I will make it short and sweet, Norco with or without taper at 60-80mg is totally do able and for me at the time Opiate ignorant didn't even notice getting off hydro "I do smoke weed daily and have a MMJ card which I have had since 18" this is how I have tapered Hydo with absolutely no w/d.

                lets say your at 60mg because of the short half life lets say you take one pill ever 4 hours and double down on your night dose instead of waking up to take in middle of the night.

                So 1st day cut one pill out you can either wait 6 hours twice to make the difference or cut one in half and take half at your Vally's worst feeling times of days this would mean no double dose at night instead 1 1/2

                then wait two days and repeat once you get down to 30mg cut half a pill out ever two days you can get off 10mg/5mg/2.5mg your choice. best of luck.

                Now for somethings to make you more informed as far as opiate w/d hydro and trust me been there done that I have read what others have posted too. They are far less painful/psychological then Morphine, Suboxone, Methadone >>>>>>, and worse of all Oxy. I have many many friends who have gone through the ringer and I have personally tried all pain meds and w/d from them "ALL" other then Methadone, Sub's.

                I would break it down like this
                codeine, people w/d from this? I had as kid don't remember
                Hydro, some people will not notice other will feel like bad flu, mild/ moderate w/d
                Morphine, bad flu, aches, full on w/d
                hydo-morph/oxy-morph, bad flu, aches, full on w/d worse then Morphine
                Fentalyn, bad flu aches, full on w/d similar to Morphine
                Oxycodone, hell, full on w/d by far the worst of all the above.

                Sub's - Heard its helped many but has also gotten alot of people worse off then where they were because doctors don't understand dosing and taper plan unless they come on this board of course...

                Methadone - Please don't ever take this lost far to many friends to count
                Husband i have done all the following including subs and methadone but meth only small doses for about a week a few years ago just to keep from getting dopsick till i could get hold of some opiates so i cant relate to wd from it. I used subs for 4 months but used the taper plan on here and weaned down to about .20 a day so i never went thru any Wd will it as i slowly weaned down and never experienced any WD with it. As for the opiates listed codeine is something i never used for any period of time so dont know about it but as far as the others listed your order of severity i find a bit different. Hydro and morphine if you go to a opiate table converter you will see that hydro and morphine are basically strength wise equal and to me neither was close to others listed. Hydro-morph and oxy-morph both have double the strength of plain oxycodone with surprisingly hydro-morph listed as more powerful then oxy-morph which to me doesnt make sense seeing how oxy is 50% stronger then hydro. As far as fent i dont know what doseage or how often you used fent but fent is the king as far as opiates go. While WD from any type of opiate can be brutal i found after abusing fent for long stretches at a time then running short it took rather large amounts of oxy to keep well until i could get more fent. Nikki if you read this it looks like husband has outlined a norco taper for you so if you can follow it and get free with it that would be great. I see where you detoxed with subs once befor Nikki in a treatment center but was wondering what kind of follow up plan did they use once you were detoxed? Good luck on whatever route you take.

                Alex

                Comment


                • #23
                  Alex, I wasn't referring to MG comparisons I'm saying equivalent doses meaning if you took 30 mg hydromorph
                  daily >> the same person switching and taking 80 mg oxycodone I have found in my experience the w/d to be rated by severity comparing same analgesic effects not 80 mg oxycodone >> 80 my oxymorph.

                  just my experience and if you ask people who are chronic pain patients its almost unanimous that oxycodone is by far the best pain reliever but because its so similar to >>>>>> doctors don't want to prescribe anything but percs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I am just going to say for the record: Do not make comparisons about the w/d effects of different opiates. Yeah, hydros, are not as strong as even a perc, however the w/d is just as real when you are coming off of those after having been on them for years, even at 80mg. You still need to learn to live your life without an opiate. As far as oxycodone goes, that is percocet, pretty much and just a bit stronger than the hydrocodone. Just like hydro's it depends on the mg. of the dose. Oxycontin, or controlled release oxycodone, is very difficult, as is everything else that is designed with a long half life, including methadone. Don't know about oxymorhone, however, I do KNOW about fentanyl as I've seen many people try to come off that stuff. You just be glad you never have to suffer that.

                    What matters most in opiate w/d is how long and how much. Another thing that matters is the individual.

                    Oxycodone is percocet or an active ingredient: percocet: oxycodone and acetiminophine. Or are you talking about oxycontin? Which contains no acetiminophine?

                    Iloerose

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Rose,

                      wasn't trying to tell others how they would feel just my experience with them as I seem to see very little about the difference in W/D between opiates other then Half-Life which is the main factor but I felt someone on that dose of Hydro she should steer clear of long half-life or stronger meds period wasn't trying to make a "guide".

                      More to be like don't dig the hole deeper and encourage the point to Nikki is that she would be better to taper off the hydro or go c/t then start sub's.

                      I get sub's help alot of people but it seems like a tool for people on crazy doses that don't want to taper or can't/ don't want bad W/D from standard opiates which lets be honest who ever doesn't want bad withdrawls isn't to the point of hating the damn pills period they are like poor me I need a crutch to get down from this bad place I got myself (isn't that how addiction starts). Do you ever truly learn a lesson if you don't w/d bad? I know it's 2013 but sometimes you just gotta suck it up learn hard lesson they are more likely to stick! I get alot get clean with subs but I feel strongly that many addicts need to learn the hard way or the are certain to go back especially if they are young, naive or new to opiates.

                      Me I want to FEEL THE WITHDRAWL after all I put my wife through the ringer and was lucky she stuck by my side the least I can do "is hate those damn little oxycontins" and make sure I feel every last pain in my body and mind during the detox period. Because as long as you have that little voice in your head saying where is my crutch even if you don't use you haven't learned your lesson.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        "More to be like don't dig the hole deeper and encourage the point to Nikki is that she would be better to taper off the hydro or go c/t then start sub's."

                        No one here is encouraging Nikki to take subs. In fact the reverse is true. What we were trying to do, is to avoid a disaster for her in mental condition. If you read the thread, you will see that everyone concerned advised Nikki to try to taper what norco she had left. What she does with the subs is HER choice, not mine, not alex's, nor shark's nor yours. Your tough love here is out of place. People do NOT get CLEAN unless that is what they want and they are ready to do so. You cannot make someone go through something because "sucking it up buttercup" is the best idea. People need to do what is right for them. No one can gauge the effect that fear has on the w/d process whether you jump from H or from norco. Most of this is a mental process. If you don't want to be clean deep in your soul and want it more than anything you want in the whole world, then even bad w/d isn't going to stop you from using again.
                        Subs are not a crutch, but they are a tool. Subs, done correctly, help people to work through the cravings, give them space to find a way to STAY clean and to get a plan together to do so. Before you start judging people on their methods of getting and staying clean and searching for a process or a helping hand, read the boards and show some empathy: Getting clean is easy, staying that way is hard, hard, hard.

                        Peace,

                        Iloerose

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Nikki noticed you haven't posted since Sunday so was wondering how its going. No one here is going to judge you on whatever route you have taken the last few days so if your up to it give us an update ok. Best wishes to you.

                          Alex

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by The Husband View Post
                            Alex, I wasn't referring to MG comparisons I'm saying equivalent doses meaning if you took 30 mg hydromorph
                            daily >> the same person switching and taking 80 mg oxycodone I have found in my experience the w/d to be rated by severity comparing same analgesic effects not 80 mg oxycodone >> 80 my oxymorph.

                            just my experience and if you ask people who are chronic pain patients its almost unanimous that oxycodone is by far the best pain reliever but because its so similar to >>>>>> doctors don't want to prescribe anything but percs.
                            I see now you were just comparing the severity of WD to certain opiates opposed to others. Some are more doable then others i agree with that. Never used weed to ease the WD from anything not because i am antiweed its just because i don't like the effects of it. lol it makes me paranoid as hell so that's the last thing i would want when trying to fight off any WD from anything. Everyone is different i guess in how severe there WD are compared to another persons. As Rose pointed out none of us were encouraging Nikki to use subs we were trying actually to discourage her from taking subs. She stated she had 3 strips so whatever she did with them was her choice. Her coming off 80 mg of Norco might be as brutal to her as someone else coming off say 150 mg of oxy. You stated you want to feel the WD as if that will help you stay clean and maybe in your case that is true. My DOC for many years was alcohol and i really don't know how it didn't kill me. I went into bad WD a few times over the years and even when hospitalized once and being detoxed i still went into full blown DT. Went to one treatment center where they had no DR there to give you any meds so had to get detoxed with no benzos and i was sicker then a dog. I have been sent to a state mental hospital twice to get detoxed and ended up with pancreitis because of alcohol. Broke my neck several years ago while drunk and was lucky i wasn't paralyzed from the shoulders down. I WD bad from alcohol several times until 2005. So when you state do you ever truly learn a lesson if you don't WD bad maybe in some people it applies but for me my addiction was way stronger then my willpower. By the way it looks like you have been clean around 3 weeks now so congrats to you and my best wishes to you.

                            Alex

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hey Group...

                              MIA this week but still around and just checked in to see the past few posts. Wow, discussing addiction can be as dangerous as politics and religion, can't it?

                              To sum it up, I think Rose has hit the nail on MY head, each person's withdrawl is his own personal hell. Pain and misery are exactly what that person says it is. Does that make sense? I do realize that to a lot of people here, an 80-100 mg norco habit is small beans and seems so much easier to kick than someone with an oxy or H addiction, and of course subs. But for me, in my sick brain, it may as well be the same thing. I have a history of panic disorder, so as soon as the anxiety starts to kick in from even thinking about wd's...I lose it. Like I said earlier, it's what keeps me using for the most part. Even the thought of having to wait to hit 26 on the COWS worksheet sent me into a tailspin.

                              For those of you who are wondering what route I took...I weaned the norco I had left as best as I could. I ended up getting a few more and they will last me until I decide what to do. I will either try the taper plan above, which is exactly what I was looking for so THANK YOU for taking the time to write that out for me Husband...or see another doctor about weaning using subs as I did before. If that is even possible...which I actually think it is since I did so before. Subs is not something I want to use long term, nor will I.

                              For those that want to hear THAT short story...I went to a treatment center a several years back for the same problem. When I got there, they gave me a small amount of subs the first morning after being there. I wish now that I knew how many mgs it was but at the time I obviously didn't think much about it. Each morning they gave me less and less for about a week and that was the extent of the subs. I suffered almost NO withdrawl, besides not feeling high and a little "heavy". I stayed inpatient for a month, then left on an outpatient basis, with a prescription for an opiate blocker. I stayed clean for over 5 years because I wanted it MORE THAN ANYTHING else.

                              I slipped this time by accident. Sounds like BS but it's true. I had a really bad headache and a girlfriend of mine gave me "something" for it. She knew my history and swore it wasn't an opiate. It was a percocet and I still can't wrap my mind around why she gave it to me. She was a nurse. Anyway, just like that, the Sleeping Lion was awakened, and before I left I took one for the road. The rest is history...and that was almost 2 years ago.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The rest is history and that was almost 2 years ago. Thank you Nikki for sharing that as its a reminder to me of what I can use just once and quit again is insane thinking. I went to treatment back in 1992 for alcohol. My first aa sponsor had gotten clean in 1987. His history was full of drug and alcohol use. in 1999 after being clean for 12 years he banged his knee up playing in a softball league. He had a softball game coming up and took 1 hydro 7.5 befor his next game. Less then 2 years later he had went thru a antique collection worth nearly 100 thousand dollars about 80 thousand in credit cards lost a 70000 dollar a year job and lost his house. And he even managed during those 2 years to get clean for around 6 months. Sometimes us addicts can slip and get up and dust ourselves off and get right back on track again. Others like you and my sponsor aren't as fortunate. My gut feeling is that if it happened to me I would not be one of the fortunate ones. My best wishes to you Nikki in giving the Norco taper a shot and keep in touch and let us know how you are doing.

                                Alex

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