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  • #16
    Jay: As Kat said don't worry about the PAWS, she is right that it is rare. You may have residual anxiety, insomnia, and lethargy, but this is normal: we didn't get here overnight and we don't get better overnight. It's going to take a while for the chemicals in your brain to balance and I don't think it's a good idea to use benzo's for this because they are just going to put off the healing process. I would stick with the L-theanine and valarian root for anxiety as well as getting plenty of exercise. Believe me I know how the anxiety can paralyze you, but you're better off w/o the benzo's unless you use them after your taper and very, very sparsely. That is one addiction you don't want: w/d from a benzo makes jumping from sub look like child's play. Also, Hyland's restful leg or calmes forte will help as will gatorade for RLS. Clonidine is a good idea as it will calm you. As for the lethargy: L-tyrosine with B-6, like I said I use (still on occassion) Triple Boost by Irwin Naturals for energy. As for sleep: try an OTC or melatonin and sleepy time tea STRONG.
    When you've been on subs long term, as you have, it's best to take it slow and steady: that is what will win the race for you. Your body will tell you when you are stable and it's time for a drop, just don't get complacent and you can't measure it in weeks: let your body be your guide. I think it's best for you at this point to get stable on the .8, you didn't say how long you have been at the .8mg. It was one heck of a jump from 2mg. to .8mg.
    You'll get this and be fine, if you are going to NA or AA, that will help with your fears of finally being off.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

    Comment


    • #17
      Jay there is nothing I can think of to add to the advise you have already been given. Just wanted to welcome you to the forums. Its to late now since it appears that you have been at .8 for awhile now but if you dropped straight down from 2 mg to .8 that would explain the way you feel. Myself I weaned down to around .20 befor I jumped. My best wishes to you.

      Alex

      Comment


      • #18
        down to .5 (500 micrograms)

        I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who gave advice... i have read all of your replies and have read other threads too... the advice is sound and really the best out there.... i have heard horrer stories of doctors putting people on 32 mg and then they insurance or medicad or whatever reason they have to come off the suboxone and they quickly ween to 2mg and jump and go thru absolute agony... then when they tell there doctor what they are experiencing they say its all in your head maybee u need to see a shrink.... anyways.. hopefully doctors are now aware that this drug is infact pretty difficult to come off... by the way last time i seen a psychiatrist they wouldn't treat me and said i need to go to rehab....

        talk about passing the buck...anyways i go to AA and outpatient therApy now...but this forum here has the most understanding and helpful people


        anyways so ya i dropped from point 8 milligams .8 ... everyone thinks I'm saying 8 mg when its .8 .. huge difference...

        anyways ya I'm at .5 and feel about the same ... no better no worse...so i guess that's good plan on staying at .5 for the rest of this week then next sunday drop.again....

        One last thing i have to admit is against everyone's advice i got a short supply of a short acting benzo anolog (its not really a benzo but does the same thing.... it helped a lot with sleep..in fact i slept reeely damn good last week and had ZERO anxiety.... i ran out two days ago ( only used for four days)... and have a touch of rebound anxiety but still slept good lastnight...

        i know the benzo path us dangerous and foolish....
        and i dunno if its worth the risk but i am considering getting the exact same amount (4 or 5 day) supply and then proceed with the theanine 5htp and valerian maybe melatinin.. etc some other amino acids protien shakes excersize diet etc..

        i know the benzo route will be frowned upon and I'm not even suggesting it for others....

        they is a very real chance it is just the addict in me wanting to feel numb or fill that hole or get high.... some of you know what I'm saying

        so i can only be honest and say my experience i am still thinking very short term and short acting ( 3 hr half life)... may be worth a little risk as i have to be able to function i have bills to pay a job a family probation and all kinds of obligation ... so the responsable side of me says its ok..

        i dunno i may be playing with fire but i read the so called thomas recipe i thi.k and they say benzo short term is ok

        i came here for advice and support... so i wouldn't put all that out on the table if i didn't need advice... i am in fact a drug addict have been for a long time... it helps to admit it and be rigorously honest with yourself about that...

        anyway this is getting long as hek... so ill stop yappin..lol.. peace jay

        Comment


        • #19
          Edit:
          When i stated i was considering getting another small supply of benzo i ment for when i actually jump... just for the first four or five days as that seems to be when a lot of the agony hits..i guess I'm just thinking it would be nice to sleep thru a lot of that... anyways.... its not set in stone and i kinda did a test run to see how it affected me.... people did notice i was out of it kinda at work and that sucks monkey balls... but other then everyone being dead set against it and thinking I'm just relapsing i think it went alright ... anyways maybe ill change my mind just if. i could honestly use them.only for a few days when acute withdrawal is hitting the hardest.. then i fail to see the harm..... i mean is it that i may get 'hooked' and keep using them or what.. like i said i used them for four dayys on and two days off and really have no withdrawAl watsoever.... just my anxiety is back..... i dunno if someone could explain to me why it is such a bad idea i would consider those reasons... maybe i really am screwing up even considering them... anyways i think i explained my reasoning prettt thoroughly so ill wait for a response before i do anything as i still don't planon jumping for another couple weeks or even months... been on this >>>> for just about four years... so i wanna do this right... I've tried to jump a number of times before all to quickly and too high a dose.... i even kicked dope in jail once and didn't get a second of sleep litterally for eight days.... it was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.. (kicking in. Jail(.. so u can understtand my fear and concern perhaps... and btw they a very real possibility i will be incarcerated again tthis year so that's a big reason I'm tryig to quit soon... as i don't want to kick in jail again... so if a handful ofzpills can succesfully help me quit at home before I'm incarcerated...well anywYs i know there no easy way out of these problems just i reely do need to get my >>>> together and realize drugs are reely bad.... just this damn suboxone is so hard to stop.... one would think the less you take the better you feel... i mean this >>>> does absolutely now nothing for me as far as getting high or anything.. i just want off...and cigarettes too... that's a whole nother mountian rite ther...lol... heck well thanks for reading my posts... if anything it helps just getting it all off my chest knowing perhaps another soul can relate and I'm not the only one going thru this... i wish the best to everone and ther is always hope! Peace jay

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          • #20
            Edit:
            alex... i was at 2mg about a month ago so down to .5 now so ya that's a 75 Percent drop over a month or so... its been rouf but i haven't been taking slivers or cheating except with the benzo kick i been playing around with...which this is what i mean:
            When i stated i was considering getting another small supply of benzo i ment for when i actually jump... just for the first four or five days as that seems to be when a lot of the agony hits..i guess I'm just thinking it would be nice to sleep thru a lot of that... anyways.... its not set in stone and i kinda did a test run to see how it affected me.... people did notice i was out of it kinda at work and that sucks monkey balls... but other then everyone being dead set against it and thinking I'm just relapsing i think it went alright ... anyways maybe ill change my mind just if. i could honestly use them.only for a few days when acute withdrawal is hitting the hardest.. then i fail to see the harm..... i mean is it that i may get 'hooked' and keep using them or what.. like i said i used them for four dayys on and two days off and really have no withdrawAl watsoever.... just my anxiety is back..... i dunno if someone could explain to me why it is such a bad idea i would consider those reasons... maybe i really am screwing up even considering them... anyways i think i explained my reasoning prettt thoroughly so ill wait for a response before i do anything as i still don't planon jumping for another couple weeks or even months... been on this >>>> for just about four years... so i wanna do this right... I've tried to jump a number of times before all to quickly and too high a dose.... i even kicked dope in jail once and didn't get a second of sleep litterally for eight days.... it was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.. (kicking in. Jail(.. so u can understtand my fear and concern perhaps... and btw they a very real possibility i will be incarcerated again tthis year so that's a big reason I'm tryig to quit soon... as i don't want to kick in jail again... so if a handful ofzpills can succesfully help me quit at home before I'm incarcerated...well anywYs i know there no easy way out of these problems just i reely do need to get my >>>> together and realize drugs are reely bad.... just this damn suboxone is so hard to stop.... one would think the less you take the better you feel... i mean this >>>> does absolutely now nothing for me as far as getting high or anything.. i just want off...and cigarettes too... that's a whole nother mountian rite ther...lol... heck well thanks for reading my posts... if anything it helps just getting it all off my chest knowing perhaps another soul can relate and I'm not the only one going thru this... i wish the best to everone and ther is always hope! Peace jay

            Comment


            • #21
              Since no one replied yet ill save ya some.effort..... i decided against continuing with.the benzo idea.... after rereading my posts.... i realize that it is just too much drug seeking behavoiur and of course i connot be responsable.with it... I'm an addict and have to remember that...

              I'm dropping down to .25 mg to.4 mg ( hard to get these doses excact at this low cause I'm cutting up 8mg strips into about 20 piecea or so...all i know is they are smallerthen what. i currantlt am on...(500 microgram)... they dont even register anymore on my .001 mg scale anything under a mg shows all zeros.... is they anyway i can perhaps make a solution and start weighing that to get more accurate dosing?

              And lastly since no one answered my new benzo posts... i have indeed decided to quit thinking that rought but having done nootropics in the past i ordered a few more amino acids...o ordered choline...tryptophan and taurine...( i beleive the tryptophan works best when you eat a few fig newtons to turn it into 5Htp which turns into seretonin which turns into melatonine....so ill have all these amino acids to aid in anxiety sleep and depression.... also mixed with choline may aid in my bipolar and help produce sam e amoung other things....

              so that's the rought I'm taking unless someone points out a big .no no sonewhere... these aditional supplements should arrive by the time i make my drop to .25

              I am currently taking theanine...htp... and a sleeping pill ( otc antihistimine type as needed...maybe twice a week....

              um milk thistle daily...sublingual b-12... and herbal teas at night to relax and being a recovering alcholic i need a drink in my handand the chamimile etc help a little..


              i did dabble in adrenafil and kratom.erlier this year and was able to skip suboxone doses with it but never re ordered cause kratom can cause withdrawals too..... was thinking it may be a shorter acting opiate so the withdrawals would.set in quicker and end quicker...but in the end it seemed like a bad ( expensive idea...i was drinking an ounce a day. to stave of withdrWal


              i have adrenal plus... dlpa.. tyrosine and clonidine for when i make my jump...


              how does all this sound overkill? Or legit...oh i got lopermide for bathroom issues haven't had to use yet but withought giving TMI ill just say soon illneed a pill to solidify my buisness..lol sorry

              moltrin for pain and ran out but getting more epsom salt as ill be taking a nunber of hot baths a day when i kick...hot epsom salt bath is tenporary releif from all body aches....

              i have a few more nootropics/supplements I'm not planning on.using during the taper/kick... but for paws if i get them i have some racetams..noopept... magnolia bark extract and skullcap extract.... and i still have phenibut i used when i quit alchohol.... i hate the way it makes me feel... all drunk like and hungover the next day but ill use it in an emergency if i can't sleep for a few days...the stuff is like ghb.....

              anyway....this is my plan of using a dozen or so.comfortmeds to quit one med.... it seems like a lot but i won't be using these daily or mixing them.too much... and of course i plan on the amino acid therapy about a month..... is ther any risk of addiction or bodily harm? I do take milk thistle and liver aid to help my liver and drink lots of ginger/lemon tea....

              i have tried cold turky and have succeded with every drug inckuding benzo and alchohol cold turky.....just this suboxone/ opiates i simply.feel.to >>>>>> withought some help... i wish i could just go to a hospital for two or three weeks andhave a doctor help me get back to normal and not using suboxone...but i have no insurance and.that's not how hospitals work... i have found one medical detox that uses comfort meds and barbituates but they wanted 15,000 dollaraes.... ya rite how many junkies got fifteen K lying around...and if they did they would bing on it and seek help when that money gone....


              well that's my plan.... its probablyy flawed but i came up with it on my own.... if anyone wants to tweek it to make it better ...helthier go for it...advice is appriciated if i wouldn't consider others advice i wouldn't even post....just my therapist and Probation officer won't can't help offer advice because the judge doesn't approve of suboxone and its strait to the clank if they find out I'm on it.....luckily the lab they use for my drug testing doesn't show up...so that's why i been doin this alone...which is never a good idea.... i need support and the current profesionals think.I'm a pothead cause.they read the police report wrong...haha... i rather let them think I'm a pothead then what i really am.... and like i said i can't be honest because suboxone is not on the approved medicatiins list in the court system I'm in.....funny thing is if you have a medical marijuana card they let you smoke pot all day on probation...its a fricken joke.... well i really feel like I'm talking to myself... i gotta go to work... if anything maybe this post will help soneone else who reads ..well peace..jay

              Comment


              • #22
                Jay: Sorry no one answered the benzo post. One thing I KNOW FOR CERTAIN: you need to get stable on one dose and stay there for a few days. That way you will decrease the possibility of w/d. You've been on sub a long time and have taken some steep drops. So I'm telling you to ride out the .5mg. or even go back up to the .6mg. and stay there for a bit. You should feel "normal" before a drop. The point is that you are all over the place in your taper. Do not get into a rush. Make sure you are stable at a dose.

                I do not know about all the amino acids and the supplements that you are on. I know a good multi-vitamin and mineral supplement helps. Serene L-theanine helps. L-tyronsine/b-6 combo helps. Melatonin and sleepy time tea help for sleep and Valerian root is priceless for anxiety. Stay hydrated.
                The best bet is exercise: Plenty of exercise to help rebuild your natural endorphines.
                The cholindine does help to relax you and with sleep.
                The benzo's may show up in a drug test.
                So slow it down some and you'll be o.k. Take it easy and take a deep breath, if you follow the slow taper plan and don't go about it willy-nilly like you are and dropping too fast, you are going to be o.k.

                Peace,

                Iloerose

                Comment


                • #23
                  I have to agree with Rose. Even you said it yourself: slow and low, that's the tempo! Take it easy. The recommemded 25% drop from .8 mg would have been to .6 mg. But, you're saying you dropped to .5 mg instead? Are you good and stable there? If not, take Rose's advice and go back to .6 mg. No need to rush since you've been on subs a long time. I've been on subs for over 7 years and am currently dropping every 10-14 days.

                  Good for you for not getting any more benzos. Excellent choice there. You seem to have a boatload of supplements, so I suppose you'll have to see what works through trial and error. Aside from that, exercise and staying hydrated is key.

                  NA/AA cannot be stressed enough. That is where we learn to deal with the normal ups and downs of life without reaching for a pill, a drink, whatever. I can't remember if you said you were involved with meetings, but if not, please consider it.

                  Keep us posted!
                  Kat

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ya sry about my long posts yesterday .. like i said i have bad anxiety... and l been of the benzo that i only took for a few days for i dunno four or five days now... I dropped to .5 when i was taking the benzos.... they are no magic pilk and lastnight and today i was sneezing and legs kicking....think that's from the sub withdrawal... and was having insomnia again and vivid dreams which i attribute to minor benzo withdrawal....
                    anyways you guys are right slow and low wins the race.....

                    i had already measured out next weeks drop to .25. but am gonna scratch that idea... follow your advice and stay where I'm at a bit and stableize.... rereading this thread i realize I'm kinda freeking out a bit here and need to relax..lol...sry again my apologies i have bad anxiety and also bipolar so says my docter... which they used to handme those super big prescription size bottles of zanex bars... that withdrawal was a living hell i was bouncing off the walls and freeking out... kinda like i am now.... i gotta trust that i will be ok eventually... i been using drugs and alchohol to relax for a long time and obviously I'm a nervous wreck so they aren't reely relaxing me right..haha damn devil i tell ya.. came to kill steal and destroy.......well thanks for allowing me a place to vent... i think I'm starting to anoy my kids mother...I'm supposed to be the man and listen to her problems...ya know... and i think its proven alchihol and opiates lower testosterone and kills sex drive...(turns ya into a winey little >>>>>) no offense intended... just upset with myself for being so manic and emotional.... i really don't. know how to functiin withought drugs all day every day.......this is a new experience for me trying to get all the way clean and sober and the first time i seriously want that....I'm thirty five and have been using since age thirteen... i don't even know what being an adult is all about cause i never have done anything drug and alchohol free at least not for very long.....

                    neways i read somewhere lastnight that drinking LOTS of water can actually be pretty benificial...and a lady i work with is gonna pick me up the pure valerian root..the actual root where i can make tea....she's a vegan and is super healthy she thinks that will help...so I'm exciited to try that.... well i gotta get ready for work..... i really do appriciate the advice...I'm an addict and i need others to point out what I'm doing wrong cause i have clouded judgment and if my brain neurons had they way they would keep asking for drugs till they killed me from respitory arrest... i really am glad i have a place to be 100percent honest..peace..jay

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Ya i just decided to take a .25 mg sliver to up my level a bit.... i rarely allow myself a sliver...am actuuay dead set against it... but i think .8 to .5 is just a bit too much...anyways...ill try again tomorro to stay at .5... was just like screw it... i wanna feel good today for a change.... hope that wasn't a bad idea but i seroiusly was starting to freak out... it sucks cause i know that 2mg will fix me right up haha.... but no way no damn way ill do that lol...addictions. suk nuts

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You need to get stable at a dose. Doesn't sound like you're stable. There's no shame in going back up to .6 mg (or whatever dose it takes to get stable) so you can have a smoother taper. That's the point of tapering -- to be mostly comfortable.

                        Never drop before stable and never more than 25% at a time.
                        All the best,
                        Kat

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I been at .5 a week now.... it was a rouf week... but yesterday felt more (normal) not as manic... i slept eight hours amazingly with no substances just sleeptime tea... haven't even taken my dose today yet or coffee ... i used to need it to wake up now I'm trying to wake up naturally... anxiety is about 80 Percent gone... I'm not buying no more supplements..just gotta man up and if that means no sleep or energy for awhile then that's that.... gotta run peace...jay

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Btw kat here you are helping me and I'm being so selfish i don't even ask how your doing? ( damn i can be ajerk sometimes...neway didn't you say you were at about 1mg? Have you gone down any and how it workin? Anyway hope you doing well...i really do gotta run tho... thanks again jay

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Ok i got a quick min before i gotta go to group counseling... was sitting here waiting for sub to kick in...(about an hour ago) and it never did.... i think the reason my anxiety went away and i finally slept is cause i took t that extra .25 mg. sliver... so .75. Anyways i don't want to feel like hell as this is my first group...don't wanna act like a psycho..lol.... so truth be told i dropped from .8 to .5 you all were right too quick as i probably wasn't stable at .5... long story short took another .25 sliver just now so i guess i only dropped in reality .05 mg...hah...its a little i guess....ya i upped my dose unfortianatly.....i think another problem is these small doses are estimates...not exact....i was wondering if i can find a better way to mesure these out... i have access to only 8mg strips and that is all so i have to work with that.... well hopefully someone can learn from my mistake of trying to use benzo and dropping too quick.... it was pretty unsuccesful i must admit....the only good news is i think .75 will be my new stable dose...neways...for real gotta run now peace jay

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                new here, first post, battled depresssion since i was 16 (24 now), drank daily for 6 months through end of college, started roxies summer '11, continued up from 1 at night to 4-6 some days 10 until september '12. went to rehab for detox/depression, was clean for a while, started the habit again on and off. 3 weeks ago i began suboxone, starting with 1.5-2 mg's/day, tapered over 3 weeks down to literally a spec of sub/day maybe .2/.3 mgs, stopped taking subs monday, Tuesday took 4 mg of xanax over the course of the day, yesterday took 1 mg at 11am and 1 mg at 10pm. today woke up, not serious wd (2nd day no sub) took 1 mg of xanax at 2 pm, feel better for now, can function. i have 10 .5 mg xanax left along with about 1mg of sub which i never plan on taking again. i use melatonin to sleep though i dont sleep soundly (or least i havent the past 2 nights.

                                my withdrawls were never debilitating, was able to work, but serious anxiety/stomach pain and hot.cold sweats but no throwing up although last night i was on the verge before bed. my plan is another .5 of xanax before bed, then .5 in the morning tmrw if i feel the withdrawals. my question is am i better off taking zero xanax and just dealing with the pain, or is it possible to responsibly take the xanax to combat the axiety and ween myself without getting addicted? total time using xanax would e no more than a week.

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