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Wanting to start tapering of Subutex and jump any advise is greatly WELCOMED!

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  • Wanting to start tapering of Subutex and jump any advise is greatly WELCOMED!

    First off, hello everyone I am a new member here. I have lurked here for a while and have finally started to get serious about getting clean. I am a 25 year old male who has been doing opiates since I was around 21-22. I had a year and half to two year oxycodone addiction (around 90mg a day, not very much I know) and a year and a half to two years on Subutex. Ever since I started the Subutex I have taken anywhere from 2-8 milligrams a day. For the past 8 months I have been fairly stable at 4mg a day. I am wanting to taper and jump completely within the next 4 months. I unfortunately do not have my family or most friends support because they simply do not know of my addiction. I know that a lot of you would advise me to come clean and I would love to do that, it is just not an option at the moment. Taking into consideration my past usage and the current dosage I am on, I would love to hear anyone's suggestions on a good taper plan and any helpful advise for when I do jump. If it would be possible to jump before four months and have the same degree of withdrawel symptoms as if i waited that long I am completely ok with jumping early. Thank you for whoever takes the time to read this and I look forward to anyone who is kind enough to take time out of their day to respond

  • #2
    I am not sure I can be of much help. I have been on Suboxone for 6 years, Starting out at 45mg a day. I decreased to 16 in 3 years and stayed there for two years. I met my current Doctor three years ago. I went to him for maintenance. A year ago he started taking me down, saying he thinks I should come off. Scared yep I have been on some kind of opiate for 10 years. (started with an injury) Any way I decided to drop my dose to 4mg all at once. I had no W/D AT ALL. Now keep in mind everyone is different and my diagnosis was dependency not addiction. (there is a difference). So now my Doctor of three years up an quits last month. He did send me to a partner that I will meet next week. However this doctor charges 175 per visit, unlike mine which was 100 a visit. So I decided to jump right off, Ya NOT happening. So I have been at 3mgs, 1mg am, and 2mg pm for a week now.Not feeling a thing, I am staying here for another week then going go to 2mg. I am not sure any of this helps you except I can tell you IT dose not make a difference on how long you have been on the medication. withdrawing is withdrawing and everyone is different. When I switched from Methadone to Suboxone 6 years ago I had to put myself into w/D for 32 hours. The worst was restless leg at night . I do have requip for restless legs I have not used yet. I wish you the best. I also understand about no support.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-30-2014, 10:23 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      TennesseeKid,

      Welcome! You've come to a great place. You will get lots of help and support here. So you've been on Subutex for about 2 years, right? Actually, the length of time a person is on sub DOES matter in regard to how quickly they should taper off. Long time sub users (myself included) need to taper at a slower pace than those who are new to sub. Have you read the taper plan by Robert_325? It's the plan most of us use to get off sub successfully and with minimal discomfort.

      The taper plan recommends dropping by 25% every 4 days. However, since you've been on sub for about 2 years, you will benefit from a slower taper. This is just my opinion, but you should try to reduce your dose every 7 (or more) days. Listen to your body. You only reduce your dose when you're stable. Stable means having little to no WD symptoms.

      If you're stable at 4 mg, your first 25% drop will be to 3 mg. Your dosing times need to be consistent every day...this is crucial. For example, once you drop to 3 mg, you should take 1.5 mg in the morning, and 1.5 mg 8-10 hours later. That way, you will have a consistent amount of sub in your system at all times.

      Countless people have used Robert's plan. It works if you follow it. Also, you need a plan to stay clean long term. Getting clean is easy, staying clean takes a lot of effort. Are you involved in NA or AA? Attending meetings will greatly increase your chance of success!

      All the best,
      Kat

      Comment


      • #4
        Welcome to the forums here Tenn kid you have come to the right place to taper off of Subs. I myself abused opiates and used Subs as a tool to help get me off of the opiate merry go round. I was on subs a total of 4 months before I jumped off in Dec of 2012 and have not used since. You stated you have been on subs for around 2 years so what you are wanting to do is doable as I have seen others on this site get clean that have been on subs for longer periods then 2 years. 4 mgs of subs is a pretty fair amount but I have seen others taper off starting at much higher doses and succeed. If you have been lurking here for awhile I am going to assume you are familiar with Robert 325s taper plan. The taper plan is a good one but keep in mind the taper plan is designed mainly for people new to subs and calls for inducting to subs at the lowest dose possible to be comfortable and stable before one actually begins to taper. lower the dose the less amount of time a person has to be on subs. The plan suggest 4 days at a dose then drops of 25% if one is stable. the 4 days is not written in stone though and as kath pointed out the longer a person has been on subs that person may need to taper a bit slower then a newcomer to subs. Since you have been at 4 mg for a few months now then you can begin to taper right away. How have you been taking your dose daily? Do you take all 4 mg in a single daily dose or do you dose 2mg in the morning followed by 2 mg later in the day? Also are you taking any supplements right now? There are a few that can help a taper out. Also getting extra exercise while tapering will benefit you in the long run. Also staying well hydrated while tapering is important. My best wishes to you and keep posting as you begin to taper. Talk with you later.

        Alex

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you for everyones responses. To answer the questions asked by you all no I am not currently attending NA meetings as I have been doing very well with not craving any other opiates except for my bupe since I started and did not feel a need to attend any until I felt ready to begin the journey towards sobriety. I will most definitely attend meetings regularly when I start tapering. Also, to answer your question about my dosing schedule, I dose differently than most people probably do. Everyone that I know who is taking subs doses first thing when they wake up, and some will split doses in the morning and mid afternoon. I on the other hand take my first dose of 2mg around 3:30 in the afternoon as I work as a waiter currently and the addict in me feels that taking my first dose right before work gives me the most energy and mood elevation that is a must in my line of work. I usually get off work around 11 and I will take my 2nd does of 2mg once I get off, as I feel as I sleep better if I have taken my meds a few hours before I fall asleep. I am currently not taking any supplements, I am aware of the suggested supplements for the jump, but what would you recommend for the tapering process? I need to have as much energy and mental clarity as possible while tapering in order to perform at a high level at my job, where my pay solely depends on how good of a job I do. Tomorrow (well today lol) is Monday and is as good as a time as any to start my taper, I see no reason to wait. I will stay in touch thank you all who responded as I do not have any support here and am going at this pretty much alone.

          Comment


          • #6
            You have gotten great advice, the only thing I would urge you to rethink is putting off AA or NA. It's a very critical part of recovery. Check out Ruth's thread on the Need to Talk thread, it's called "Ask Ruth". You said you haven't been craving anything while you take subs as you taper that may change. It's a good idea to start learning how to deal with life sober now.

            I will post Robert's taper plan just in case you haven't seen it

            https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured...apy-50887.html

            Good luck!

            Comment


            • #7
              I have discussed with a few people I know about the experiences that they had in NA meetings and from what the said there was a good amount of religion involved. I have also lurked on the NA website and 6 of the 12 steps of recovery involve the word "God" itself. I am an athiest and while I respect the right for everyone to have their own beliefs, I do not see a support group that involves religion being highly effective to me. Am i just misinformed on the way the NA works? Is NA highly variable depending on where I attend meetings, as in are there different types of NA, some that involve religion and those that dont? I live in the middle of the Bible Belt and am discouraged on finding one that does not involve religion, although i readily admit that I have just over the last few days started looking into NA. Also, are there any other support groups that any of you know about that would be better suited towards my beliefs? It's not that I would be uncomfortable attending a meeting involving religion, I just would not be able to put all my effort into something asking me to put faith and call upon a being that I do not personally believe in. In other news I started my taper on Monday...1.5mgs twice a day. I hope that when the doses start getting smaller that I can accurately cut my pills into the correct doses as I take Subutex and they are quite impossible to break into accurate small doses, and I have read and heard that consistant, accurate dosing during the taper process in quite important. Once again, thank you to everyone who takes the time out of their day to help with a problem that is not theirs I am sure I will be conversing with some of you more and more over the next few months and I appreciate everyone who gives info, support, and ideas!

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey TN kid, we are neighbors. I'm right below in Alabama.

                I wanted to say I know what you mean about getting the dose right with cutting these small pills. If you read my thread (down to 1mg, ready to get off), someone gave me some nice advice about crushing the pills when I need to go down to smaller amounts (.5 and .25). I know I was really worried about that bc they are so hard to cut down. Don't know if it's an option for you, but my husband it going to the dr. tomorrow to ask for the 2mg subutex tablets rather than the 8mg ones we get now. I'm hoping that will be easier.

                Good luck....seems there are a few of us tapering down to nothing here and it's nice to talk to people going through the same thing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I know that the religion can be off putting but that's not the central piece of NA. It's not like church, I think you should give it a chance. And yes, meetings can differ depending on the attendees. You can also attend AA, it's the same principles. It's more about learning how to deal with life sober and making contacts to help you when you are struggling. This is really, really hard. You need someone to lean on sometimes.

                  As far as the doses, focus on now. When you get to lower doses it will probably be easier to dose once a day. That's what I did and I had no problems. It's scary to think about taking only a small chip, but I promise it works.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Tennessee Kid,

                    I am hoping to relieve some of your concerns about the "God" references in the 12 step programs.

                    The concept of this higher power is NOT to help folks to find religion - it is to help people to reach beyond themselves to find help. As active addicts, we're pretty well wrapped up in ourselves, our world, our problems. We adopt an attitude that we're on our own. So when we try to fight addiction on our own, we find we're up against one helluva powerful, devious disease. And, generally, trying to muster up enough willpower and desire to fight it will end in failure. The disease is simply too big a monster for any one of us to fight successfully.

                    So what we've found, in the course of trial and error, is that the most successful ways of overcoming addiction comes from getting outside help - from another addict, from a group of addicts (meetings), from a program (the 12 steps), from a sponsor and from a spiritual basis. That can be God - that can be the Universe. That can be simply the belief that our group - as a whole - is more powerful than I am on my own. The group is succeeding at recovery as a whole, and I am not - so I trust that they are more powerful.

                    There is no requirement to make that higher power "God." We aren't around to convince anyone there's a God or there isn't a God. Our groups are around to provide the essential support to each other, which is a spiritual thing in itself. It's the love of one addict for another. It's the concept that if you are doing well, then I stand a better chance of doing well with you. That's the kind of "spiritual" I mean, not a religion.

                    We need to realize, on this journey of recovery, that we are not alone. And we are not all-knowing about something as challenging as the disease of addiction and its recovery. Time and time again, I see addicts struggle with trying to find recovery on their own, without NA or AA, and inevitably, they fail. It's exceedingly rare that an addict can overcome this disease on their own. Those who succeed are generally those who are willing to "go to any lengths to succeed" by getting involved in a 12-step program. The more effort we put into our recovery, the more likely we are to overcome it.

                    I am not aware of any non-spiritual 12-step programs, but that doesn't mean there are none. I know, after decades of meetings, that MANY atheist addicts do succeed with NA or AA - and they are not expected to become "believers" in the process. Belief in God is not required. Most of us just find that it helps us in our process.

                    By the way, have you noticed that Step 3 includes the words, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him"? The founders of AA decided to add those words to express that there is no basic requirement of what "God" is - and to allow for those without a belief in God. So early on, AA had its atheist members!

                    Please don't limit your chances at successfully overcoming addiction by pre-judging these 12-step programs as religious, as they are not. It's simply that more people do believe in God than do not, and that is often their reference point for recognizing a higher power. If anyone tells you that you MUST believe to succeed in recovery, they are mistaken. Move on and listen to someone else!

                    Hope this helps a little.

                    All the best,
                    Ruth

                    PS I have a thread over on the Need to Talk forum, entitled Ask Ruth - aka ARTIST658" - feel free to add any questions or concerns to that thread, if you wish.


                    You will know the truth - and only the truth can set you free.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you everyone who had helped me begin to understand the process that I am going to have to take on my road towards sobriety. I have always been a very independent individual, but since I have become serious about making sure I am able to follow my dreams and aspirations I am becoming more and more aware of the value of a support system. I do have a few friends that I can talk to and lean on during this process, but these individuals, while I love them to death, have a hard time telling me what I truly need to hear. This is going to be a long journey, and I am afraid that since I still have months left in my taper that the time frame is going to have me become lost in the shuffle on this board, if you all understand what I'm trying to say (having trouble finding the words to explain what I'm thinking). On a different note, I have decided to follow a taper plan that I have came up with that is very similar to the one posted by SharksFan as an example.

                      I said I was stable at 4mg, and that is true, I will sometimes go a few weeks of taking no more than 4mg a day and experience no withdrawel symptoms but there are times where I exceed 4 mg all the way up to 6mg. If anyone has any comments on suggestions on the following taper plan please feel free to post them!

                      I am going to start on a week of 4mg daily split in 2 doses...so 2mg in the early afternoon and 2 mg after work (this week)
                      The next week I am going to take 2mg in the early afternoon, and 1.5mg after work.
                      The next week I am gong to take 1.5mg in the early afternoon, and 1.5mg after work.
                      I will continue alternating reducing each dose by 0.5mg every week until I am down to 0.5mg twice a day for a week.
                      I will then make the jump to once daily dosing of 0.5 mg a day for a week
                      Then 0.25mg once a day a week.
                      I will then start skipping days just as the Roberts plan states but with 0.25mg and once I get to skipping 4 days I will jump.

                      I understand that figuring out a taper plan that I am comfortable with is 0.0000001% of the battle, but I feel confident that I can follow what I have proposed. It will take a longer amount of time than is stated in the Roberts plan, but I feel that I will benefit from a longer, slower taper considering I have been taking Subs for 2 years and was inducted at a higher dose than I should have, although it was CONSIDERABLY less than the absolutely ridiculous induction dose of 24mgs that I could have started at.

                      Even though the next few months will be just my taper period, I would really like to stay in contact with you all, I am brand new here, I do know you all, but I feel that this forum is a very good place for me to be and that I am surrounded by people who truly care and understand what it will take for me to reach my goal. I hope everyone has a wonderful day or night, depending on when you read this

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just keep posting, TN kid and let us know how it goes. I am new here, too and would like to kind of journal this process and maybe help people just like us in the long run. It helps to talk to people about it. I don't know if it's allowed but I'd give you my email if you want to be taper buddies and compare how it's going. I know what you mean about it taking months. When I came here a few weeks ago, (at 1mg a day) I thought I was ready to make the jump. After reading all this great info I see that I have a couple months to go. A little discouraging since I am SO ready to quit, but I see that taking it slower is better. Take care.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Robert's taper plan was meant for those just beginning sub and recommends a 6-8 week taper. People who have been on longer usually go longer between drop days, but still stick to the .25% cut. Many do this by feel: they do a drop and stabilize and when they feel stable drop again. A week sounds fine to me, but make sure you don't cut too fast. Wishing you luck. Keep moving forward and do not get complacent.

                          Peace,

                          Iloerose

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TennesseeKid View Post
                            Thank you everyone who had helped me begin to understand the process that I am going to have to take on my road towards sobriety. I have always been a very independent individual, but since I have become serious about making sure I am able to follow my dreams and aspirations I am becoming more and more aware of the value of a support system. I do have a few friends that I can talk to and lean on during this process, but these individuals, while I love them to death, have a hard time telling me what I truly need to hear. This is going to be a long journey, and I am afraid that since I still have months left in my taper that the time frame is going to have me become lost in the shuffle on this board, if you all understand what I'm trying to say (having trouble finding the words to explain what I'm thinking). On a different note, I have decided to follow a taper plan that I have came up with that is very similar to the one posted by SharksFan as an example.

                            I said I was stable at 4mg, and that is true, I will sometimes go a few weeks of taking no more than 4mg a day and experience no withdrawel symptoms but there are times where I exceed 4 mg all the way up to 6mg. If anyone has any comments on suggestions on the following taper plan please feel free to post them!

                            I am going to start on a week of 4mg daily split in 2 doses...so 2mg in the early afternoon and 2 mg after work (this week)
                            The next week I am going to take 2mg in the early afternoon, and 1.5mg after work.
                            The next week I am gong to take 1.5mg in the early afternoon, and 1.5mg after work.
                            I will continue alternating reducing each dose by 0.5mg every week until I am down to 0.5mg twice a day for a week.
                            I will then make the jump to once daily dosing of 0.5 mg a day for a week
                            Then 0.25mg once a day a week.
                            I will then start skipping days just as the Roberts plan states but with 0.25mg and once I get to skipping 4 days I will jump.

                            I understand that figuring out a taper plan that I am comfortable with is 0.0000001% of the battle, but I feel confident that I can follow what I have proposed. It will take a longer amount of time than is stated in the Roberts plan, but I feel that I will benefit from a longer, slower taper considering I have been taking Subs for 2 years and was inducted at a higher dose than I should have, although it was CONSIDERABLY less than the absolutely ridiculous induction dose of 24mgs that I could have started at.

                            Even though the next few months will be just my taper period, I would really like to stay in contact with you all, I am brand new here, I do know you all, but I feel that this forum is a very good place for me to be and that I am surrounded by people who truly care and understand what it will take for me to reach my goal. I hope everyone has a wonderful day or night, depending on when you read this
                            As a long term user kid you do need to taper slower. The .5 drops a week is how one well known experienced sub Dr tapers patients starting at the 4 mg mark until they get to 2 mg. He then has them do .25 drops starting at the 2 mg mark. Best wishes and I will talk to you later.

                            Alex

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Alex,
                              I have been experiencing some minor symptoms from my current drop this week of 3.5mg. It is only in the morning before I take my first does before work. I am thinking that my strange dosing schedule is partly to blame for this. Would you or anyone else recommend that I start taking one does in the AM and one in late afternoon or early evening? I am thinking that my doses are too close together (usually 4pm them 11 or so pm). I also think that your recommendation of a slower taper is a good idea, the last thing I want to do is taper too quickly. I want to be able to make my jump as easy as possible, if easy is an adjective that should be even found in the same paragraph as jumping from subs.

                              And Auburn girl I would be grateful to have someone to converse with during this whole process. I really appreciate you extending to me and to have someone who is going through the same thing as me would be invaluable. I hope that you give yourself the time you need to do this right, one day we will be back to our normal, sober, selves and that in itself is motivation enough to keep plugging away!


                              Hope to hear from you all soon!
                              Steven

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