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Finally in the process of suboxone taper. Realize I could use some help and support.

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  • #16
    Max! You're post was fantastic. Sounds like you had a good day. I found doing things in small chunks helps me alot. The more small chunks you do, the bigger the progress. I have had days when the to do list seemed so daunting. I would pick one thing and get it done, then like an hour later do another and before I knew it, I was like "dang! Look at everything I did without realizing it".

    I smoke too. Want to q

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    • #17
      Ug, having trouble with my tablet. Posts keep getting cut off and posting when I didnt even hit the post button. I wanna quit smoking someday too! Gotta log off and clear the cache in my tablet. Ttyl!

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      • #18
        Hey Max

        The electronic therapy my mother tried. That is some scary stuff. Idk if any of your loved ones told you how you reacted to it but my Mom was out of it. Scared the living >>>> out of me. I thought I'd never get the normal her back. It didn't work for her. Honestly all the depression meds out there and treatments I don't really believe in them. Except for some good old fashioned counseling...talking with a good therapist. I think the meds only aggravate symptoms and its like your a science experiment. Hit and miss with nasty side effects. So on top of being depressed...you have other ailments to add to the mix making you feel even worse. To me its not worth it. I think what helps more is really trying to pin point what is causing unhappiness and making changes. Holistic therapy, like finding things you enjoy and making time for them. I really hope its a side effect making you feel down and you will come out of this feeling refreshed and renewed. I have a hunch that it is. Depression is natural....its telling us something is not working in our lives, until we figure that out and try to change it, no pill is gonna change your life. Thats just my opinion.

        About the sun shining brighter thing thats how I started to feel too! So thats good! Things will get better you'll see. Hopefully whatever you were going through was just a funk...and you'll get healthier and feel better and better and get to really enjoy your life once "the fog lifts". Plus its spring...perfect time of year to do this About the smoking. I know once I quit smoking I felt a lot less anxious. I read that it causes a roller coaster and actually aggrivates anxiety. Makes sense...you feel good when you smoke and anxious when you need a ciggarette.

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        • #19
          Oh...one more thing not to beat a dead horse about the depression meds but really really just be careful with them. I just found out this morning my Mom went to the hospital last night because she was hallucinating, it really scared her so they called 911. She weaned off Paxil idk if your familiar with that. So far this past year because of that drug she had severe memory lapses to the point of being checked for alzheimers....now hallucinations and seeing things. Scary stuff those psychiatric drugs. I really hate them. Only if someone is severely mentally ill and really needs them I understand. But with the electronic therapy you mentioned and the depression you just so reminded me of what my Mom went through. Seizures and all kinds of things after getting off them. Just trying to save you the grief of that. Suboxone withdrawal can't touch that....so just careful. Theres some good holistic counselors out there that focus not on the past but your future mostly. How you can better your life more so then focusing on what you regret. Good stuff I hear...

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          • #20
            Gettinit, sorry to hear about your Mom's struggles with depression. It really is a terrible and frustrating thing to deal with. I remember first feeling depressed in 7th grade; I didn't know what it was at the time though, of course. I just didn't like myself and I really wanted my life to be over, I have one vived memory of walking down stairs at school and just feeling so heavy, and sad, and thinking "I wish I could die." Then I thought, "What a weird thing to wish." I have never felt very loved by my mom; she has a LOT of trouble expressing emotion. She lost her mom at 5 y.o. and her only sister at 14 y.o. to a car accident and a sledding accident. I understand that this has shaped her and that I need to forgive, and I think I have forgiven her finally, for the most part. It's just that all the years of constant criticism and never being good enough have left their mark on all of us kids, myself and middle sister especially. I'm really working on getting rid of my perfectionist attitude towards myself and trying to love myself, in all my flawed glory. It sounds hoaky, but it is what it is.

            My therapist has been a tremendous help and even though I am an addict and need to respect that, that problem feels under control. I was thinking this morning, "Hmm, having some W/D and knowing it will be a long battle does suck, but at least I don't have any cravings." Thank God that I don't have cravings, hopefully I won't at all, but I know that could change as I get lower. I haven't had cravings for opiates since pretty much the beginning of the subs. Even if I do have to deal with that, I know for a fact where ANY opiate abuse will lead me and how fast it happens. Not worth it.

            Gettinit, I agree with you about the depression meds. They don't really work for me, or for a fairly large segment of patients with recurrent depression. There definitely has to be more focus on therapy and figuring out how to combat the depression and it's source, instead of just handing out pills. The ECT did work for me, but not permanently. It also caused a lot of memory loss, luckily my wife and I have been together long enough that she clues me in on things I can't remember happening. Needless to say, the memory issue really stinks, although it gets better with time. But I do believe there is an important place for ECT with people who are severely depressed and have tried everything else. It was eerie how well it worked for me, just not permanently.

            Today was a good day. I haven't felt bad at all, except for early this morning. Mornings are always really tough for me, but I've been noticing that I don't feel nearly as tired in the morning as I had been on the full 8 mg dose. Definitely a good sign!! We're watching my buddies two girls for the evening, they're 5 and 7 and my daughter is 5 so they're having a great time, as usual. Mike, their dad, will be here in about an hour and he will stay the night as well, so that is fun. I think I will stay at 5 mg a couple more days and then go down to 4. Thanks for the posts Raven and GettinOverWith, have a great night and weekend.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MadMax03801 View Post
              Gettinit, sorry to hear about your Mom's struggles with depression. It really is a terrible and frustrating thing to deal with. I remember first feeling depressed in 7th grade; I didn't know what it was at the time though, of course. I just didn't like myself and I really wanted my life to be over, I have one vived memory of walking down stairs at school and just feeling so heavy, and sad, and thinking "I wish I could die." Then I thought, "What a weird thing to wish." I have never felt very loved by my mom; she has a LOT of trouble expressing emotion. She lost her mom at 5 y.o. and her only sister at 14 y.o. to a car accident and a sledding accident. I understand that this has shaped her and that I need to forgive, and I think I have forgiven her finally, for the most part. It's just that all the years of constant criticism and never being good enough have left their mark on all of us kids, myself and middle sister especially. I'm really working on getting rid of my perfectionist attitude towards myself and trying to love myself, in all my flawed glory. It sounds hoaky, but it is what it is.

              My therapist has been a tremendous help and even though I am an addict and need to respect that, that problem feels under control. I was thinking this morning, "Hmm, having some W/D and knowing it will be a long battle does suck, but at least I don't have any cravings." Thank God that I don't have cravings, hopefully I won't at all, but I know that could change as I get lower. I haven't had cravings for opiates since pretty much the beginning of the subs. Even if I do have to deal with that, I know for a fact where ANY opiate abuse will lead me and how fast it happens. Not worth it.

              Gettinit, I agree with you about the depression meds. They don't really work for me, or for a fairly large segment of patients with recurrent depression. There definitely has to be more focus on therapy and figuring out how to combat the depression and it's source, instead of just handing out pills. The ECT did work for me, but not permanently. It also caused a lot of memory loss, luckily my wife and I have been together long enough that she clues me in on things I can't remember happening. Needless to say, the memory issue really stinks, although it gets better with time. But I do believe there is an important place for ECT with people who are severely depressed and have tried everything else. It was eerie how well it worked for me, just not permanently.

              Today was a good day. I haven't felt bad at all, except for early this morning. Mornings are always really tough for me, but I've been noticing that I don't feel nearly as tired in the morning as I had been on the full 8 mg dose. Definitely a good sign!! We're watching my buddies two girls for the evening, they're 5 and 7 and my daughter is 5 so they're having a great time, as usual. Mike, their dad, will be here in about an hour and he will stay the night as well, so that is fun. I think I will stay at 5 mg a couple more days and then go down to 4. Thanks for the posts Raven and GettinOverWith, have a great night and weekend.
              Hey Max,

              Man sorry to hear you had a rough upbringing. I can relate to a lot of what your saying. Not hoaky what-soever actually really justifiable for a 12 year old living in that environment. It seems like a lot of addicts are still struggling with a rough childhood. I know I have, my husband and a lot of my friends as well. Crazy....if you think about it-SO little time in our lives affect us SO much. What happens in that short period in our lives which lasts only 20 years can affect a lifetime it seems. IF you let it I believe. We were helpless kids, but we aren't helpless adults. Now life can be anyway you make it to be. It can be rough, we can get stuck dwelling on the bad that happened. Or we can accept that the past is the past, theres nothing we can do to change it but we CAN move forward though its rough I know. Its really hard to love yourself when you never had that person to show you that your worthy of being loved. I struggled with that for a LONG long time and didn't understand it at the time either. It helps to see also with your Mom how her childhood shaped her also, we really are just products of our environment at times. Theres a good chance she doesn't know any better because thats how she was brought up. Very good chance that it was your Mom's normal. Have you tried talking with her about it ever? I know thats a really awkward conversation...but my Dad was a really violent (drunk) man growing up. Though I still have a lot of anger that might never be resolved, once I did tell him how we viewed our childhood. He apologized because his Dad treated him the same, he lives with that guilt now. I understand and forgive to an extent for bad choices-alchohol. Saw him beat the hell out of my poor older brother too many times. He got it the worst. I had it the easiest being the girl...but still have a really vivid memory of a roller skate thrown at my head full speed and being told shut up or dumb >>>>> anytime I stood up to him. Blah. Anyways...just wanted to let you know your not alone in how you feel and shouldn't feel "hoaky" lol. But it is the past. Can't change it, but I think we really can take a leason from it and be even better parents. Just praise those babies and give them all the appreciation anything you felt you lacked, go over board. Be the annoying OVERLY lovey protective parent. LOL Then maybe one day when they're childhood was "so horrible" cause you smothered them . You can tell them your childhood story.

              Then they will do even better for their own kids...and before you know it that cycle will be broken. That's your choice though ya know. We just gotta MAKE that happen and be strong and choose to look for the good in things and try our best to get over the past. Were not helpless anymore. Just like your choosing to get clean, such a huge step in a positive direction. With the psychiatric drug warning, I still stand LOL. Crazy crazy stuff. Have you ever seen the commercials? "Will end your depression! (warning may cause impotency, mania, suicidal thoughts, depression, your hair to catch on fire, and your legs to fall off)" LOL.

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              • #22
                Wow you have a lot of good responses here i read your intro...and a few replies down....decided >> chime in as well then ill.return and read the second half of your thread....

                man ther are so many cool.people with great things to say here its hard to keep up..lol


                anyways ya man a lot of us are long term sub users.....

                i would follow roses and kats advice and follow that link to get a good taper plan

                i was kinda a mess tapering before i got here....

                personally i have found that being on subs for so long i simply cannot reduce 25 percent every 4 days.....its more like 20 percent every one to two weeks.... so if you have to allow yourself a few extra days you wouldn't be alone in it at least..

                the very first time i inducted on subs i was doing a half gram or so of dope everyday and inducted on 8 mg pills three a day....

                today thanks to tapering i have stabelized and am.down to .5 mg once a day..

                with the help of people here of course


                i also have individual counseling...group therapy and attend AA/NA meetings....so all the support one can get definatelly helps


                anyways you have alot of support here.....ill be checkin in on ya....

                if it makes ya feel better i was able to get down to 2mg with little problem in retrospeck...... ya your gonna experience some withrawal here and there its almost 100 percent berable usually....

                you simply gotta get used to the idea not reaching for a sub everytime you feel.icky...ther is 101 other things you can do to handle life on lifes terms so to speak....

                anyways ill stop yappin...i do that a lot...I'm just super excited you decided to get off this drug...and I'm super excited for others here as well....including myself...i can see the finish line.and your finish line is just around the corner.....think.of it like a marathon...slow steady determined...peace...jay

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                • #23
                  Ps....you had mentioned depression...i struggle with that as well...

                  i think you have the right idea by eating healthy and excercise....it definately is a good idea to start your healthy lifestyle habits now as it seems you have done...it will definatelt help..

                  as far as depression...i.struggle too....was thinking about going to the.doctor and getting wellbutrin.i think it is an.anti depressent and quit smoking aid........

                  if not i will get nic lozenges and i have tryptophan 5htp and st johns wart....i use or will.use in aimes at curbing depreassion...trying to take the holistic approach that changing numerous aspects of ones life will provide better chance.for.succes...there's no magic pill.so to speak.....anyways...just you caught my interest with the depression thing and was just hoping ti bounce ideas around in aims maybe we can lessen the depression to some degree...anyways...I'm all hopped up on my morning coffee..so sorry to post twice...just was reading the rest of your thread..and can relate..newasy peace...jay

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                  • #24
                    Thank you for the responses guys. I am sorry to hear about the rough time with your Dad, GettinIt. My best friend growing up was in a similiar situation. His dad was a heavy drinker too and would sometimes let loose on him. It happened once when I was over there, it was so awkward. Luckily his mom was able to intervene, but it was kind of shocking to me. I try to be there for my daughter wheneven I can. I haven't been getting up in the morning with her for a couple months now; my wife and I used to take turns on the weekends and stuff. It's gotten to the point where she won't even ask me to get up with her. I feel badly about it and I think I want to talk to her about it and just let her know that I want to get up, it is just so hard. Not sure how to approach it. I do give her all the positive reinforcement I can and don't allow any dwelling on the negative. My wife is a huge help too, she is a very kind and patient. I'm pretty sure that with how low I've felt at times that I wouldn't be here without her and Madelon to keep me around. Who really knows though?
                    Hi Jay, nice to hear from you. I've heard about 5-htp, maybe I should try some. It's supposed to help serotonin production, I think. I've also considered taking Wellbutrin, it is one I have heard a lot on the forums. I took it a few years ago, when we were trying everything. I don't remember why we discontinued it. But tapering is definitely a marathon. Nice and slow is good, I know, but then I am also so excited to reach the goal. I need to remember not to make it too hard on myself, just not necessary. I took 4.5 today and will probably do that for a couple days and then go to 4. I think I'll stay there for awhile and really let my body adjust. It will be the half way point. What kind of steps did you do between 4 and 2? I am wondering about doing it 0.5 at a time? Thanks again for the words of support and encouragement. Talk to you later.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MadMax03801 View Post
                      Thank you for the responses guys. I am sorry to hear about the rough time with your Dad, GettinIt. My best friend growing up was in a similiar situation. His dad was a heavy drinker too and would sometimes let loose on him. It happened once when I was over there, it was so awkward. Luckily his mom was able to intervene, but it was kind of shocking to me. I try to be there for my daughter wheneven I can. I haven't been getting up in the morning with her for a couple months now; my wife and I used to take turns on the weekends and stuff. It's gotten to the point where she won't even ask me to get up with her. I feel badly about it and I think I want to talk to her about it and just let her know that I want to get up, it is just so hard. Not sure how to approach it. I do give her all the positive reinforcement I can and don't allow any dwelling on the negative. My wife is a huge help too, she is a very kind and patient. I'm pretty sure that with how low I've felt at times that I wouldn't be here without her and Madelon to keep me around. Who really knows though?
                      Hi Jay, nice to hear from you. I've heard about 5-htp, maybe I should try some. It's supposed to help serotonin production, I think. I've also considered taking Wellbutrin, it is one I have heard a lot on the forums. I took it a few years ago, when we were trying everything. I don't remember why we discontinued it. But tapering is definitely a marathon. Nice and slow is good, I know, but then I am also so excited to reach the goal. I need to remember not to make it too hard on myself, just not necessary. I took 4.5 today and will probably do that for a couple days and then go to 4. I think I'll stay there for awhile and really let my body adjust. It will be the half way point. What kind of steps did you do between 4 and 2? I am wondering about doing it 0.5 at a time? Thanks again for the words of support and encouragement. Talk to you later.
                      Just wanted to chime in about your taper plan. Even though Robert's taper plan works wonders, the 4-day drop recommendation is for someone who is new to subs. As you know, long-term sub users need to taper slower than that.

                      There's a fantastic sub doctor - Dr. >>>>>>> - who recommends that his patients taper by .5 mg once they get down to 2 mg. But, if you're comfortable dropping by .5 mg once you hit 4 mg, then I don't see a problem with that. The goal is to reduce at a comfortable pace without getting complacent. As long as you're making forward progress then you're on the right track.

                      Listen to your body. You'll always know when it's time to drop.
                      Take care and enjoy your weekend.
                      Kat

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                      • #26
                        hi Max I haven't replied to your thread until now and I want to welcome you to the forums here. I see you have already been given some good advise here and I am glad to see you want to get off of subs after six years. I followed the taper plan on here after my first 6 weeks of sub use and went down to around .20 when I jumped off. I see you have seen the taper plan by Robert 325 and I followed it but I was only on subs for 4 months. As already pointed out long term sub users need to taper slower then his taper plan. Kath pointed out Dr >>>>>>> and what he actually does with long term users is above 2mg he has them do .50 drops until they reach 2 mg and then once at 2 mg he has them drop .25 each drop. If your at 4.5 right now then he would have you spend a week there then go to 4. He has patients spend 1 week at each dose but if after 1 week if you don't feel stable then I would stay at that dose until your fully stable. The drops are less then 25% but after 6 years you probably need to drop less then 25%. My best wishes to you and will talk to you later.

                        Alex

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                        • #27
                          Hey again Max,

                          I agree with the taking your time on the drops thing. No need to suffer in this..thats the whole point of a wean >> cold turkey. Even myself have only been taking subs a few months and 4-5 days still wasn't enough for me to stabilize depending on the drops some took 2 weeks before I felt ready. You will Feel it and know when your fine to drop. About your daughter, maybe you should break the ice on this and just explain to her your not feeling well right now and you'd love to be able to do a lot more with her as soon as your feeling better and you love her. I think kids tend to internalize a lot and take things personal and they need to hear quite often through life our Reasons for behaving like we do. That its NOT them but its us. It would def alleviate some of your guilt and who knows maybe she will be happy to help you out in this, and find other ways for the two of you to spend quality time together. It would only be beneficial to the both of you, so wouldn't hurt. Anyways good to hear your taper is working out so far!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by alexnt View Post
                            hi Max I haven't replied to your thread until now and I want to welcome you to the forums here. I see you have already been given some good advise here and I am glad to see you want to get off of subs after six years. I followed the taper plan on here after my first 6 weeks of sub use and went down to around .20 when I jumped off. I see you have seen the taper plan by Robert 325 and I followed it but I was only on subs for 4 months. As already pointed out long term sub users need to taper slower then his taper plan. Kath pointed out Dr >>>>>>> and what he actually does with long term users is above 2mg he has them do .50 drops until they reach 2 mg and then once at 2 mg he has them drop .25 each drop. If your at 4.5 right now then he would have you spend a week there then go to 4. He has patients spend 1 week at each dose but if after 1 week if you don't feel stable then I would stay at that dose until your fully stable. The drops are less then 25% but after 6 years you probably need to drop less then 25%. My best wishes to you and will talk to you later.

                            Alex
                            Max,

                            I wanted to clarify my last post to you. I made a typo: I meant to say since you're at 4.5 mg, it's ok to drop by .5 mg at a time, and then drop by .25 mg once you get down to 2 mg, like Alex said. Tapering slowly is a really good idea for long term sub users. I drop every 2 weeks or so and it has worked for me.

                            How are you feeling today?
                            Kat

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                            • #29
                              Hi Kat. Today I can't tell if I feel optimistic or pessimistic, I must be neither. Thank you for asking though. I kind of feel the fog that I've heard others speak of here, I think. Yuck. Yesterday I was going to take 4.5 mg again, for the second day, and then drop to 4 today as I will be opening a new strip. However, I could not find the 0.5 piece in the foil that I had placed it in from the day before. It was gone. I just took 4 and I feel okay today. Physically, I feel pretty good. Probably worse tomorrow and then better the next day, that's what I am hoping (I'll always take better tomorrow AND the next day though ) I took L-tyrosine this morning before my coffee and definitely noticed a small difference in my alertness. I think I'll keep taking that for awhile. Now that I am at 4 I am going to stay here until I really feel better (i.e. start getting up with my daughter on the weekends at least and start exercise habit.) I think that my motivation to continue to taper will wear off into these two areas, at least that is what I hope.
                              Gettinit, thank you for the advice. I spoke to my daughter last night for the second time about not getting up with her in the morning. The first time was a more casual mention that I really want to and wish that I did not sleep in like I do, this was Saturday night. On Sunday she actually came over to my side of the bed and asked me to get up with her (after Mom saying, "I really need to sleep a little more.") You would think that would be enough, and I feel awful about it, but I didn't get up with her, instead, even worse I said "Just a few more minutes..." Nicky got up with her about 40 minutes later. I know she is old enough and responsible enough to be downstairs by herself and watch Netflix on the iPad or play a game, but I feel guilty that I am not there for her. I spoke to her again last night and explained to her that I have been discontinuing a medicine and really struggle with certain things like waking up. She asked me why I didn't just ask my doctor for a different medicine that would make me feel better and I explained that it doesn't work that way in this case. I emphasized that it was about me, my problem, and I really do want to be up with her and it had nothing to do with her and nothing had changed with her. I think she understood better. I really want to continue to work on this, but mornings have ALWAYS been my problem. I had an extensive 32-hour sleep study done last fall right before the second round of ECT just to rule out any obvious sleep problems. The sleep doctor said I had border-line narcolepsy, but didn't quite "pass" the test for it. One more nap where I went to REM immediately would've been "more text-book." He offered me stims which I took for a little (tried Provigil for a few days and Concerta for a week or so.) I was scared of being dependant or worse on the stimulants and decided not to go that route at that time. However, a few months ago, I started taking Vyvanse through my regular psychiatrist. It helped my motivation, immensely at first, but lately not as much. After I am done weaning off the subs I plan to try the same thing with the Vyvanse. I have been pretty good about not using more than I should, today I took only half for the first time in a long time. I believe the L-tyrosine I took will help me to make it without too much lethargy. I can get off drugs (prescription or otherwise) but it is up to me and will take tenacity. I hope it will be worth it and I really believe it will.

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                              • #30
                                [deleted - swearing]
                                Last edited by Anonymous; 04-15-2014, 04:01 PM.

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